Norman?

Discussion in 'Identification' started by nickh, Nov 3, 2010.

  1. nickh

    nickh Member

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0543271265

    Top end looks very 'D' (itself derived from the Kenilworth scooter engine of course) while bottom end is pretty much identical to Mark Howard's water cooled possible prototype:-

    http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/Images/Norman-6.jpg

    What do you think?

    I know Mark wanted it but the price went too high - someone obviously rated it well beyond curiosity value.

    BTW. Anyone go a decent pic of an 'S' - I can't think what the bottom end looked like before the mag went chain drive with the 'SC'?

    NHH
     
  2. air-cooled

    air-cooled Member

    Nick,

    It looked pretty much like a standard Norman type D engine to me, with the usual Runbaken magneto, although it was configured for a Bungalyte generating set, the gear on the shaft being for the quadrant starting lever. Pity it was missing its cooling fan though.

    What makes you think it may have been something different ?

    And, yes, it was a bit pricey for what it was.

    Phillip
     
  3. nickh

    nickh Member

    The 'D' has a compact round crankcase a la Kenilworth scooter, bolted to a sort of 'angle plate' bracket to make it suitable for base mounting. It also retained the scooter's drip feed lubrication. the Crankcase on this and Mark's water cooled unit looks far more as if it was designed for stationary use from the outset with mounting lugs on the base and presumably (looking at the sight glass) an oil sump for lubrication.

    NHH
     
  4. air-cooled

    air-cooled Member

    Nick,

    As far as I understand it, the first type of engine produced (c1919) by Norman was the Kenilworth motor scooter engine which did indeed have a compact round crankcase. I have one of these and it is bolted to a home made angle plate to make it "stationary". However, Norman never intended it to be a stationary engine, as evidenced by the abscence of a governor and any additional provision for cooling. It was never particularly successful but Norman went on to produce (late 1920's) the E type series of racing engines from it.

    The Kenilworth engine was further developed in about 1920 into a stationary engine. This engine had a more square form crankcase with holding down lugs, provision for a governor and also air cooling via a belt driven fan. It is this engine which is known as the "D" type (not the Kenilworth scooter engine). These D type stationary engines were built into small generating sets (the Bungalyte) and also into compressor sets for garages. There is no sight glass on the Norman D type, it is splash lubricated (probably its worst feature). The D type continued into production until around 1926, so it is surprising that there are not more of them to be found in preservation.

    Mark's engine is very interesting, being a water cooled prototype, but it has the same crankcase as the D type Norman stationary engine. Strangely the ebay Norman was bought by a "marc" according to the feedback.

    Phillip
     
  5. nickh

    nickh Member

    While partaking of a lunch time butty, I dug out Phillip Gallimore's old SEM articles on Norman and indeed he does say that the crank case was redesigned when the Kenilworth scooter engine was developed in to the 'D' stationary engine, so it look like you are correct.

    BUT, if that the case what are these:-

    http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... 9458Xthdal

    and

    http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/Images/Norman-4.jpg

    Where the round crank case and mounting bracket are clearly visible?

    Looks too well done to be a home made job plus it has governor and cooling fan, but who knows.

    Curiouser and curiouser!

    NHH
     
  6. Nick. Phillip Gallimore is Air-cooled.

    Regards

    Andy
     
  7. nickh

    nickh Member

    Yes I'm sure he is unless it's raining - oh, I see what you mean. Oops :oops:

    Hi Philip, I've got some Scott stuff for you somewhere! So anyway - what do you think of those Bungalyte pics?

    NHH
     
  8. air-cooled

    air-cooled Member

    Nick,

    That's very interesting. I have not seen those pictures before. They clearly show a transition between the Kenilworth motor scooter engine and the style D stationary engine. As you say the steel base looks too good to have been a home made job, and for 2 engines to have the same feature cannot be a coincidence (unless they are the same engine). Its almost like looking at evolution taking place as the scooter engine transforms into a full blown stationary engine via an intermediate step. What a fascinating story, and maybe an article for SEM in there somewhere....... Thank you for adding to my knowledge.

    Phillip
     
  9. nickh

    nickh Member

    Now that is interesting -I love engine genealogy! My mistake was thinking I knew what a 'D'looked like after seeing pics of two anomalies. I look forward to SEM article.

    Hope to make 1000 engine next year so perhaps see you there - hope it's air-cooled!

    NHH
     

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